Posted by: David Harris
I am often asked questions about socialization for puppies that are intended for personal or Schutzhund protection. This week has been particularly heavy in that category and I have been swamped by questions from people who have the notion that if you socialize a young puppy it will ruin its potential as a protection dog.
Here is an example of a question I recently recieved:
hi: saw your 6 month old in training. I was wondering how you felt about socializing dogs before 6 months old and doing any sort of puppy obedience if youre going to use your dog for schutzhund. I’ve been told that socializing my puppy before 6 months of age can potentially ruin them. How else can they learn bite inhibition?where did you learn how to train for schutzhund?paul
I wish I could say this question is uncommon, but it is not.
Ok, Paul and anyone else reading this post here is how I feel about socializing puppies in the first six months of their life.
I feel that anyone that tells you NOT TO socialize your puppy prior to six months knows absolutely nothing about developing dogs. Period. I would run, not walk from this advice. It is absolutely wrong headed and is based on a very, very old wive’s tale type mentality.
Puppies that are not extensively socialized in the first four months of their lives will grow up with very limited ability. The technical term for this is called sensory depravation and has the effect of actually causing permanent physical developmental issues inside the puppy’s brain. The layman’s term for this is Kennel Dumb.
Any puppy intended for protection work not properly socialized will give the appearance of being protective. He will growl, snarl, bark at strangers and generally act like a viscious dog and stroke the weak mind of the owner. These dogs, when pressed, will fold under true pressure from an attacker and will run away. I have personally demostrated this to many a person that just refused to understand the difference between aggression based in fear and aggression based in solid, natural protective instincts. I have ran full grown Rottweilers, German Shepherds, Malinois and Pit Bulls competely off the field bare handed and armed only with a yellow rubber ducky squeak toy. As I approached these poorly socialized dogs they all put up a very valiant front. Barking and posturing like they were really, really tough. But, anyone that can read dogs would know it was all show and bluff intended actually to avoid fighting rather than inviting a fight. True protection dogs have fighting drive. They enjoy the fight and look forward to a challenge. Poorly socialized dogs are afraid and are only putting on this show to make you go away in hopes of avoiding a fight. As I continued to approach these paper tigers they would stiffen up, show teeth, and raise the hair on their back - all in an attempt to make themselves look formidable. But, as I got closer and closer the dogs became more and more concerned. Most started backing away before I got within ten feet. Those that held their ground to within four feet got attacked by the rubber ducky from behind my back. As the ducky came out and squeeked all the dogs broke and ran. Most would still be running had their owners not been holding them on leash at the time. Needless to say this is a very sad demonstration and the owners were visibly upset by their dogs’ failure to protect them from the awesome rubber ducky. I am always sad for them as well. I do not like showing people that they have been led astray by the advice to not socialize their puppies, but I feel that if I do not show them, and allow them to believe their dogs are capable of protecting them, it will only further this ignorance.
One simple fact. True protection dogs are not afraid, they are not mad, they don’t show teeth and their hair doesn’t come up on their backs. Those are all signs of fear. Dogs that are afraid will always make poor protection dogs and never make it in the sport of Schutzhund, where their fear will be exposed by a correct helper and judge. I have never seen a fearful dog pass a Schutzhund protection test if the helper did his job properly.
I will address the question of early obedience training in another post, but I believe early obedience training that is based in positive reinforcement methods is good for all dogs. I would not recommend heavy handed leash and collar work for any dog that will be later be expected to compete in tracking and protection work, since this type of training will affect their confidence. Look at the video I have posted of my puppies doing early puppy obedience. I happily invite you to come test them in protection armed with only a rubber ducky. You will leave bleeding. These dogs do not have fear.
I hope all those with questions post. This is a good subject for discussion and debate. There is a time to start limited socialization with a dog intended for personal protection. I would love to discuss that further.
David Harris
Master Trainer
Animal Resorts & Training Center
www.animalresortstc.com
26 responses so far ↓
1 Paul // May 17, 2009 at 10:21 pm
Rubber ducky. I love it. You create such vivid pictures with your writing. Anyways, three responses. I’m not doubing your knowledge and yet I want to make clear, without naming names, that the advice I received on refraining from puppy classes until 6 months of age came from a top, and I mean Top, schutzund expert. Now i’ve learned that it is important to have multiple discussions on the topic of socialization/bit inhibition and for the owner to make what they believe is the wisest and safest move. I’m with you so far. So say you have a doberman pinscher puppy. From what I understand, a Slow developer. Does it make sense to take that into consideration and introduce to other pups at maybe 4 months of age instead of 3? And once enrolled in class, if I see another owner’s puppy trying to dominate mine, what would be my role during those moments to assure a negative experience doesn’t make as deep an impression as one hopes that positive ones do? There is a lot of information on this site, so I have my homework cut out for me. Many thanks, Paul
2 David Harris // May 18, 2009 at 7:50 am
Paul, I think it is important with any breed to customize your advice case by case. I have had Doberman pups that were very fast developers, but needed extra socialization and some that were slow to develop drive that needed less socialization. So, there is no formula to replace common sense. If your puppy is shy around certain situations you must socialize more. If your puppy is non-reactive to situation and stimulus then it’s a non-issue.
More importantly who said anything about enrolling in a group puppy class? That I am against. So, if that is what your Schutzhund advisor said, then we are in agreement. I do not like group classes for puppies. Two reasons: One, I want to customize my training to fit the puppy. There is no way to do this in a group setting where all pups will be trained the same. Some will fail and some will succeed. Secondly there is to little control over the type of dog and owner you will encounter in that class and the format is not optimum for learning. Try teaching a child to read during a parade and you will get the picture.
You need private instruction with someone that has actually developed a dog to do the task you are hoping your pup can do. If you cannot find that instruction in your Schutzhund club hire a private trainer that meets your criteria.
I suspect your advisor has had a bad experience with group puppy classes.
Not socializing your puppy for six months and not getting involved in a group training class until after six months of age are totally different issues. You can socialize your dog without getting into group training.
3 Danielle in KY // May 22, 2009 at 8:47 am
Ok this may sound crazy but my idea of socializing is with people and different environments. With the environments being said we have babies/kids that always leave toys laying around that make noises, play music and sounds. Our puppy usually tramples over them without any fear what so ever because he is used to it. LOL now with this being said would it be advisable to have people leave noise makers/toys in the floor at random to socialize the puppy with “scarey duck noses” they may encounter. Our dog usually just trips over them and goes about his business as if nothing happen.
Would you suggest people leave things like we do laying around? I know this all sounds insane but couldn’t it prepare them for everyday life outside the house like rubber ducks that have no manners and attack?
4 David Harris // May 23, 2009 at 8:09 am
I think it is a great idea to leave toys and squeeks around. I also create scary things for the pups to deal with like plastic bags and smells that might alarm them. Them more the merrier.
5 Danielle in KY // May 23, 2009 at 10:09 pm
That is how I do. I had a yard sale this week. I made A LOT of money and on top of that I got to teach my pup to “stay” and not everyone wants to pet and love on him. It was GREAT! He laid on the porch, people paid me and he did well. I was really proud of him. Yelling kids, screaming parents, car doors slamming, kids throwing junk around! It was an amazing environment for a pup LOL.
My suggestion is to get kid toys that make noises if you bump into them or step on them. We have toys like crazy and the pup doesn’t even care if he trips over them, falls, bumps or anything else with them. He does well, the best part he knows they are not his and leaves them alone. For those that do not have kids and the chance to leave the noise making toys around- try yard sales, www.freecycle.org , and flea markets are an excellent place to start.
Or just have your own yard sale LOL and create a noisy environment like I did. He was exposed to 200+ people of all ages the last 3 days. He’s been around so many people he doesn’t even care anymore LOL.
What type of scents could I expose him to around my house?
I’ve made trails through the house with hot dogs and let him sniff them out, hid them under different things like cups so he can knock the “winner” over or behind things.
6 Amber in Va // May 27, 2009 at 9:37 am
Great advice on socializing.It takes a stable and well socialized animal to know how to respond in various situations.I just wanted to add a little from my experiences with my pitbull bitch.We both came late to the sport of Schutzund and personal protection work.I did not start working her till about the age of 4 and really just fell into it because I was looking for a trainer to work obedience with one of my males.Kali (my bitch) loved it ! She ended up being the dog novice helpers were started on, because she was so steady.She was a great tracker;FH level ability; loved bite work and tolerated obedience;this being from a late start at any “formal” obedience training.But I credit her stablity in part to her breed but also to the fact that after receiving her at 8 weeks she literally went every where with me and saw just about everything.I was fortunate to work at a job that I could take her to every day . I guess I am saying that they just need to see that it is a big world with lots of noise and commotion and that it is normal.Thanks A.
7 David Harris // May 27, 2009 at 10:41 am
Excellent points Amber. I am fortunate also to be able to take my young dogs everywhere I go. The best dogs I have ever raised were raised that way and I suggest to anyone that can to do the same. The mere act of taking them forces them to cope and develop new skills that a dog left at home doesn’t ever encounter. Thanks for posting.
8 Christina // May 27, 2009 at 12:58 pm
Is working in a puppy circle one day a week considered a puppy training group? I didn’t think it was but I can see how the distinction could be difficult to make.
9 Brandi // May 27, 2009 at 2:43 pm
I don’t think it is ever too early to start getting young pups used to different sights and sounds. I started my litter of Dobe pups at 4 weeks old with little “puppy agility” courses with lots of different materials and noise making stuff like alum foil and pill bottle filled with candy, egg crates, wire, tunnels, anything and everything I could think off, I also started taking them visiting soon after that. At about 6 wks, I started taking them out in 2’s and even individually for short trips.
By the time they were 8 wks they knew how to sit for treats, walked on a leash, were crate trained and used to riding in a car.
The point is to keep it low key and to realize that every pup is an individual. There were a couple pups that I only took out with mom because they needed her there. You have to judge the pup and what it is ready for on an individual basis. They all develop at different rates. Even if they are from the same litter. Don’t push them. Guide them.
10 Paul // May 27, 2009 at 7:47 pm
Socialization: for a city dwellers with a doberman puppy, I’ve heard from a reputable trainer that dog runs are bad news. She owns dobermans herself, and she told me to stay away from them. But once grown, going off leash in the park (legal at certain hours), how might he respond to other dogs if his only play experience is in puppy classes? What relationship will this have to bite inhibition and when are we going to get into that very important topic?
11 David Harris // May 28, 2009 at 8:10 am
Paul,
I really think you are over thinking the puppy socialization issue. There is no ONE way to do anything. A dash of common sense and you can find ten ways to properly socialize your puppy. Someone had a bad experience with dog parks so all dog parks will render bad experiences? Nonsense. I personally don’t care for dog parks for puppies since I have so little control over the owners, not the dogs, but the owners of the dogs. Left alone with one hundred dogs and my pup I would be fine. But, add the owners and it would be a nightmare waiting to happen. But, there are many fine parks with many fine owners and your pup would have a fine experience. Keep them on leash until you know the lay of the land just to be safe and all’s well that ends well.
What do you want to know about bite inhibition? What it is? How to develop it? Why it’s important?
12 David Harris // May 28, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Paul wrote back:
Ian Dunbar wants you to allow your puppy to bite at a young age, and when he does
it hard, to pretend to lick your ‘wound’ and make the pup sit or take a time
out.
David replies:
Psycho Babble. I like Ian, but really……….. Is all that necessary? It’s similar to the old Alpha Wolf Roll crap that used to be so popular and is now not so popular.
For starters if you could get your puppy to sit and do a time out it’s pretty unlikely he is running about biting you. And if the pup were tough enough to play bite you and draw blood do you really think they would care if you were licking your wounds? They would probably think it’s funny. Why not yelp and run about the house? Makes as much sense.
How about we use positive reinforcement methods to teach the puppy to nuzzle your hand for rewards? Then teach the dog what is the appropriate thing to bite such as a toy or tug. Then put the behaviors on cue so they know when to bite and when to nuzzle. We might even change the motivation for play biting by being non-reactive to biting. And we might, just might correct the puppy for putting his teeth where they don’t belong once he is old enough to know better and the positive reinforcement training we have done has some time to sink in.
I am not big on correcting pups for doing something they don’t even know is wrong. So, I want to teach them what to do right first and then address what is wrong later.
In my opinion puppies really can’t do much wrong. It’s our job to keep them out of trouble. For example if a toddler were to pull something off the stove I would blame his parents, not the toddler. But, if a six year old did the same behavior I would not feel sorry for them since they knew better and had been taught not to do the behavior, but for whatever reason decided to willfully disobey.
Sorry Paul. I am into training. Not Psycho Babble.
Puppies/dogs know exactly where their mouths are and how hard they are biting. Just the same as you know how hard you are squeezing something with your hand. If you squeeze to hard it’s because you meant to and didn’t care. Not because you didn’t know any better.
Bite inhibition is a good thing to teach, but it’s not nearly as complicated as some might imagine it to be.
13 Danielle in KY // May 28, 2009 at 3:42 pm
See this is why I like reading David’s inserts on here, straight forward and to the point with no nonsense involved.
14 Paul // May 29, 2009 at 5:32 am
I dont think puppies realize how sharp their teeth are or how it might feel without feedback, but I am in agreement with everything else you said. I serously think it may be time to write your own book!!
15 Brandi // May 29, 2009 at 8:04 am
Paul, I guess my confusion comes in when you say you are training for schutzhund. Why would you want to teach your puppy to bite softly? Most schutzhund people (myself included ) believe that you should either redirect a puppy or just try to survive until they get older. You can usually tell a schutzhund person with a pup by the marks on their arms. You can’t teach a pup that its wrong to bite and then expect him to go out and do well in schutzhund. If his early training is that biting is bad…… then you have created a road block to his training and will have to later attempt to over come that. However, you can teach him that it is better and more fun to bite a toy.
16 Cindy Jacobs (Cyd) // May 29, 2009 at 8:29 am
Brandi,
Boy that is the truth on the marks on the arms!! I am loaded with them… I am a big believer in the redirecting… in all things with the puppy. I also redirect a puppy when they go after chewing something in the house or that is mine. I will leave my shoes out etc.. and redirect the pup to his chew bone or toys. When my pup is or wants to be active, I use those times in training to move them from food to working for play and toys, again redirecting that energy.
17 Jessica // Jun 1, 2009 at 8:53 am
David, while you are on the subject of socialization, I have a question about vaccinations. My vet recently told me to absolutely not take my puppy Koda outside until she has had her third round for parvo. She told me that KY is an ideal breeding place for parvo and that it can stay in the ground for up to 7 years after an infected dog has been around. I have listened to the vet and limited her to our big backyard here in KY. However, I have been taking her to see family in Indiana at my parent’s house where I know what animals have been in their yard for the past 7 years. Is it ok to let her play with my sister’s healthy vaccinated dogs? Ok to let people pet her and come visit before her puppy vaccinations are finished? Should I listen to the vet and keep her inside until her third set of puppy shots?
18 Danielle in KY // Jun 1, 2009 at 1:47 pm
The best socialization right now by far I have done is in a truck stop with all the trucks coming and going, fueling up, jake brakes going off, air lines releasing and every other possible noise going off you can possibly imagine. We took our pup to the “Largest Truck Stop in the World” the Iowa 80 with 800 parking spaces, 450 employees, movie theater, a dog wash and various places to eat. Was an excellent experience and he even walked up the 80,000 pound trucks like he owned them! He did great in the truck the whole way there with no accidents, chewing and actually alerted when another driver walked past the truck and paid no attention to the noisy other diesel engines around us. I even put him on the flatbed trailer just for something different. He honestly loved it, all the sites, smells and noises did him a lot of good.
1,300 mile round trip but it was truly enjoyed by both.
This makes it easier for me because my better have is a truck driver, he even mentioned taking him out on the road with him, like I will let that happen!!! Part of the way home he slept on the gun, LOL.
OHHH I also purchased a stun gun from another driver to introduce it to the pup (not shock him either lol), he ignores it and goes about his business.
19 David Harris // Jun 2, 2009 at 5:56 am
Danielle,
Sounds like an exciting trip for a pup. The best dogs you will ever raise are the ones that travel with you at an early age. It really makes a huge difference in their mental development.
20 David Harris // Jun 2, 2009 at 6:03 am
Jessica,
I am sorry you have a vet that cares more about your puppies physical health than he does your puppies mental well being. In my opinion if you keep your puppy at home and isolated from strangers, outside stimulus, outside trips, and just plain old life you will have a dog that isn’t much of a dog when he grows up. Hopefully this isn’t a breed that you expect to protect you when they grow up. Raised this way they most certainly will not be able to do that task.
Life has risk. You vet is giving you sound medical advice, but apparently knows nothing about the mental development of puppies.
If your puppy is properly vaccinated he will be fine. If not, then parvo will come find him regardless of where you hide him.
If I were going to avoid one location with a puppy that one location would be the vet office. That is where all the sick dogs go.
21 Karen // Aug 16, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Hello
I have a question, regarding socialization. I have 5 pet dogs, I am a dog groomer and trainer. I am now just venturing into the sport of Schutzhund, I will be getting a 10 week old GS puppy soon. I have been around a Schtzd club for 1 year now, observing. The other members in the club do not really have pet dogs at home. My concern is do I let my GS puppy socialize with my pet dogs, if so how often as I do not want the puppy to want the other dogs more then me? I only ask this because it has already happened to another GS puppy I tried to work, he was always looking for the other dogs when I was training him. Was this a fluke? I do not want to make the same mistakes, I should also mention, he had shown fear aggression tendencies, and urinated when ever I gave him a command in a crowed situation. I did kennel him separate from the pet dogs at night.
22 Cindy Jacobs (Cyd) // Aug 17, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Hi Karen,
It will be interesting to see how David responds to this, as the dogs I have seen him train since I have been with him, are all house pets. My male has a Sch2 and is an inside house pet, watchdog and farm dog. I also have 5 pets and am just now raising a new GSD pup that will be the same.. I do limit time with other dogs while a pup and work with pup alone to bond.
23 Brandi // Aug 17, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Hi Karen,
I am with Cindy on this. My dogs are all housedogs. Cinders will be Sch 3 this fall and I am training her daughter in Schutzhund. Personally , I feel like genetics are the most important part. I have Dobermans and they are a breed that bonds heavily to people and much less to other dogs, so I have never been faced with that particular issue. However, I don’t shelter my puppy and her mom and my older dobe do play rough with her and do let her know her place as the puppy. I personally believe that they either have what it takes or don’t. However, extreme dominance over a puppy should be avoided at all costs. Also, crate training is excellent and always make sure to have some one on one time with your pup every day.
Good Luck!
24 Danielle // Aug 17, 2009 at 3:10 pm
I got my GSD at 9 weeks and limited play time with my other dog. One reason is I wanted him to bond with me and not the other dog, and I wanted him to be well rested for his learning session. I put them in different kennels too and would let them out seperately to potty and whatnot. I try to not make a time difference in spending more time with one and not the other but still want the bond with both. I try my best to take my pup EVERYWHERE with me and walk him daily to different places where there are other dogs that bark and act like nuts just to get him used to it and so he’ll ignore it. This sounds horrid but it’s truly not, LOL I use the kitten to work on the “come” command too. Dog goes off to play with the kitty and I call him back. Works well and the pup doesn’t try to eat our cat or anyone elses. Also you could leave the other dogs crated when the time comes and work with the puppy around the crated dogs, just a suggestion.
Yall are wearing me out with 5-6 dogs LOL we have the 2 dogs and 3-4 kids and I really want to pull my hair out half the time, well ALL the time actually.
Sorry I have been away from the blog, a lot of bad things going on. My aunt has to have her lung removed sometime this week. Pretty sudden finding of cancer and a bunch of other things. Please keep us in your thoughts.
25 Karen // Aug 17, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Thank you for the suggestions thus far. I will crate the puppy, and I will take the puppy everywhere with me for socialization. All my pet dogs social and would not harm the puppy, BUT they would certainly not let the puppy dominate them….so I think I will limit exposure to the pet dogs as much as possible just to be safe and sure of a bond with me. Thank you for the comment about genetics..they either have it or they do not. I am worried that too much play time with other dogs is better then work time with me…what do you think?
26 Cindy Jacobs (Cyd) // Aug 19, 2009 at 11:28 am
Hi Karen,
I feel the best time to bond with your puppy is to start with hand feeding them, this alone forces you to work with your puppy 3 times a day… if you view the videos day 1 through day 6 under puppy training category David and I did, this is the time I work with and train play my puppies. David does a write up on each video, might want to take some time to view them and read and see if this helps with your bonding and training process. I always fed and worked with my pups alone away from the other dogs, I am amazed at how fast they learn.. I am now working a new puppy and use this on all puppies I bring in for training or my own pups.
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