Posted by: David Harris
Video by: Cindy Jacobs
As promised I am posting an updated puppy bite work video. This type of GROUP training is often used with puppies to help stimulate their interest and build drive. By seeing and hearing the other puppies react to the agitator (helper) it often causes the puppies that have less interest or natural fighting drive to become more interested than they would if this exercise was done one on one. Also this exercise has the added benefit of allowing the puppies to see and interact with other puppies their age and realize that they are the same. I have seen many puppy that would become aggressive towards other puppies or dogs when they start barking at the agitator. This obviously is an unwanted behavior. We want the puppies to focus on the agitator and not the other dogs. So, this exercise gives the puppies a chance to see other puppies, bark at them if they wish, but to only be allowed to vent their aggression towards the helper and not towards the other dogs. So, up to about six to eight months of age this type of group training is very helpful. After that age there can still be some benefits, but I personally like to start working the pups on a more one on one basis at that age so I can focus on their individual strengths and weaknesses. As the helper it is my job to understand these strengths and weaknesses, building on what strengths each puppy has to further strengthen and cover over their weak spots.
In this video you will mostly just see me swinging a puppy sized tug or toy. The purpose being simply to build prey drive and teach the puppies how to engage the helper and to develop full, hard, deep grips. This comes very naturally to some puppies and others will take considerable encouragement. Some puppies will never develop the drive and hardness needed for a demanding sport of Schutzhund. But, even those puppies can benefit from this exercise. This type socialization and experience is well worth the effort.
In some case you will see me move in ways that are designed to push ever so slightly the pups defensive drives. Like building a muscle, you can strengthen a drive in a puppy by pushing it just to the brink of damage and then backing off to allow recovery and then repeating the exercise. Each time you will see that you are able to push ever so slightly harder as the pups mature and their drives strengthen and harden from exposure to stress.
I also attempt to socialize the pups in this exercise by touching and handling them to expose them to physical touch from the helper. It is very important for the puppies to not fear the helper and to have no fear of having him touch them all over their bodies.
Enjoy the video and as always please feel free to ask questions. It is a simple exercise, lots of fun for the handlers and the puppies, but their is much more going on here than just a play date at the park.
David Harris
9 responses so far ↓
1 Scott Langley // Jun 26, 2008 at 2:27 pm
The puppy circleis old and outdated and doesn’t teach foundation. Good puppies are left to bark with out getting the attention it deserves while attention given to others is undeserved. A puppy barking because another is barking requires no reward, It’s just barking to be barking. While the puppy that barks for a toy or prey object should get rewarded because it is initiating the prey to move and it’s able to drive the helper(prey) through it’s bark. Thus the reward for work, Not for just barking
2 David Harris // Jun 26, 2008 at 9:36 pm
Scott, You make some excellent points. I have seen puppy circles used badly and I have seen them used well. It is just like any method. Some people can have success with one method where others fail to have any success at all with that method. We only use puppy circles in the very beginning of our puppy protection work. It is more of a socialization tool than anything else. Helps excite the puppies. Allows them to get used to other dogs barking and gets them some general good socialization. We quickly move on to working the young dogs one on one. Thanks for reading the blog. Please share more of your knowledge with us. This is a learning site and we love to hear everyone’s opinion.
3 scott // Jul 7, 2008 at 9:40 pm
I have personnaly seen the results of your puppy circles and others and I very rarely see much benefit at all. Allot of pixie dust and smoking mirrors IMO. Why not put single pups on a back tie and teach the “Game” from the beginning. Dogs and their socialization should come in groups I agree but not during these excersises. The dogs will hear enough of the barking and commotion started by others just as well from the car. Wasted energy and distraction, again IMO. What happens when the pup gets pulled to start the real work and it doesn’t know how to initiate the game on it’s own or relies on the whip or defense to get it started. It doesn’t have the others to draw it’s confidence from so they, in most counts , will take some time to push the prey “man” to start the excersise. Those that depend on the whip or have pushed into defense way to early tend to show shallow, hectic SHIT GRIPS. I have worked a multitude of dogs recently that have this problem. Not sure why everyone is in such a hurry to put a dog on the sleeve except in the case of a helper that is looking to pad their resume. I don’t know everything there is to know about protection or the sport of schutzhund having only been at this for 7 years, however I can recognize wrong training. Not that yours is wrong by any means just not sure of the method that is being used on these pups.
4 David Harris // Jul 8, 2008 at 7:21 am
Scott, You continue to make excellent points. Thanks for taking the time to write. As I said before there are many ways to train a dog. Each trainer has to know the INDIVIDUAL dog and CUSTOMER and do what his EXPERIENCE says is best for them. Any trainer that gets stuck training all dogs the same way will have a lot of dogs that fail to succeed. I have not had that experience. I vary my methods to fit the individual dog and have had great success training and titling dogs. So, the proof is in the pudding. Please share links to some of your training video’s so we can share in your knowledge and see your success with your methods. We all benefit from sharing information.
5 gregariousred // Jul 8, 2008 at 9:37 am
I like working my puppy in the puppy circle. It’s fun for him and me, and I look at it as an introduction to what we’ll be working on further in our training. We also practice tracking and we’re learning obedience. I guess maybe if the puppy circle was all that we were doing, I would be less enthusiastic, but it’s just one part of what we do each Saturday in our group class. The human half of the puppy team also gets to watch the older dogs and their owners go through both AKC Obedience routines and Schutzhund routines. Watching these teams gives me confidence in my puppy, myself and my trainer, and I learn what to expect in the future. They give me a lot of inspiration.
6 Amy // Jul 8, 2008 at 6:48 pm
My 3 year old male was started out in a puppy circle and, at least for him, no one could accuse him of having shallow or hectic bites. Perhaps it doesn’t work for all puppies, but mine will now break your arm if given the chance.
7 Cindy Jacobs (Cyd) // Jul 9, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Scott, I personally have visited 3 schutzhund clubs in our general area, and every one of them have done young puppies in circles I have participated in. WDA clubs and USA clubs, so most still use them that I have personally been involved with and witnessed, so there must be some benefit if all still use them.
8 Jerol // Jul 24, 2008 at 2:22 pm
God bless America! The key is train, train, train, and train some more. How many working dogs were registered with the SV and the AKC last year? Thousands…how many are trained for and make the top levels of all sports that involve protection? David and Scott are both correct. How ’bout that? Ha! I’m not a “Harris Campster”, I don’t train with David, Shoot don’t even live close to him, but, I have to give credit where credit is due; he’s built a heck of a business. How many years you been at it David? We all should be progressive thinkers and trainers. Ever evolving but remembering that even Koehler methods still get it done as does Karen Pryor’s as does Fritz Biehler’s. (Biehler being the only of these three to have the best Sch dogs) There is a danger when thinking is limited to one camp due to political or social pressures. Be independent and free thinking so that your training is structured with discipline. If we build a library of knowledge to be drawn on when the situation arises we’ll be successful.
Question is, “what are we training here”? Is this not Schutzhund? If so, are we not training for power with control? I mean, it’s a picture we present to the judge. Even the ob can show power. If we keep this in mind we will always be fair to the dog and train him the way that suits him best. Sure, who wouldn’t love to have that dog you have to chip away from because he’s the real deal? If you do then you might train a certain way. If you don’t but the dog is capable of showing power because the dog is possessive and willing to fight for the sleeve you might train another way. It all should be done with a mindset that we want our dogs to look as powerful and spirited as possible with the matching level of control. I work in Schutzhund so I’d say I don’t believe in working a puppy in bite work at all. Not really sure what’s Scott’s take on this but mine could very well be a third point of view, how ‘bout them apples! HaHa! Breeding will tell you if the dog will work or not. Have faith in it. Breeding increases our odds of success, yes. How they grip as a puppy is no indication of how they will grip as an adult with all the pressure of the work put on them. I’m of the opinion there are too many things that can go wrong while that puppy is little, teething, and lacking the chemical changes that will come. Think of this, if the dog, when physically/mentally is ready to do the work and the helper is correct the dog will be shown from day one how to bite correctly in the proper drive. Idealistic you say, maybe. Still, if you did it this way how much clearer would the work be to the dog? How much quicker would he progress? Quality of the grip is both genetic and taught. Can one be if the other is lacking? All the best genetics in the world will not make the dog work like we want nor will training work if the dog doesn’t possess the genetics. The dog will show me when they are ready. When they do, I’ll work them. Besides, all other aspects of the sports can be worked on. Now, I say this from the perspective of a person who is not training professionally. I am not bound by time or the expectations of owners. I’m not selling dogs and have time to let one grow up. My perspective is the to date culimination of many individuals tutelage. So God bless America! I’m going to train, train, train, and train some more.
For what it’s worth…
Jerol
9 Cindy Jacobs (Cyd) // Jul 28, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Jerol,
I feel pretty confident, this team, will make it to SchH3, in a short period of time, given it is my first dog to ever train with a trainer. Another point of view.
I agree with the train, train, and train some more (that takes discipline, and the thrill of competition). Being a competitor all my life both in team and individual sports (out of enjoyment) there are 3 links to me in dog training: (the owner/handler/trainer, the trainer/coach, and the dog, in that order) speaking from the stand point this is my first dog to ever train. Just by viewing this statement, to me, gives the biggest clue as to where the majority of blame or success is, my job as owner is 3fold in this team, in continued titling of a dog. You can have the best trainer/coach in the world, but if you have an owner/handler/trainer that is not capable of following instructions, has a fear of competition instead of an enjoyment, and lacks the discipline or desire to train and has no drive to succeed in a sport, you may as well hang it up right there. (the dog is last on the list to me). That type person will maybe show once or twice and never again, so the best trainer and dog in the world can’t make this person love or desire to continue. Schutzhund is a sport, a team sport with the 3 I mentioned. It is us 3, challenged to get passing scores in 3 events on the same day, to attain the win, against scores needed, for the title. If I were given the challenge of choosing a team of say 5 people that had never in their life trained a dog before for competition (as myself), but I was permitted to interview and select these people for my team, I personally would choose the individuals that have enjoyed and competed in things in their lives in both individual and team sports. I am willing to bet and would love to personally know the answer to this, but my guess is that the majority of the people that have attained the SchH3 club membership are disciplined people that enjoyed and participated in (sport) competition through their lives. I personally am the evidence of David’s abilities to teach and train, starting with a totally backward pup that a schutzhund person would not have even touched or wasted their time on, and taking him already at 2 years old to SchH2, not to mention his AKC titles and herding instinct test. I personally, am the evidence, of what a top trainer/coach (David) is able to accomplish with a totally backward pup to start with and an owner that has never been to a dog trainer before in her life until meeting David. I would bet there are very few trainers that are able to make a Schutzhund 3 dog out of a 100% uncrated house pet from the age of 5 months old, living with all toys out to play with 24×7, and family treats…this requires the type of team we are to accomplish. But then being a competitor all my life, I know one thing, if you as a competitor want to succeed, you have to start with the best in knowledge and proven titling ability trainer/coach….going strictly by our record, I chose wisely.
Cindy
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